Forum:Reordering Yakity-Sax to episode 18

Forums: Index > Wiki discussion > Reordering Yakity-Sax to episode 18

Reordering Yakity-Sax to episode 18

See also: Forum:Episode numbering: air dates vs. official sources and Forum:Original airdate (7)6(four) (talk) 16:11, July 31, 2018 (UTC)

I figured this discussion should be hashed out before episodes are released on iTunes, so there wouldn't have to be any sort of mass image moving shenanigans based on any potential conclusion of this forum. Now, earlier, I said I felt that the listing should be left alone, for now, pending any sort of official clarification from Discovery Family.

Well, Gameleon from Equestria Daily received official correspondence from Discovery Family, stating that officially, the episode is season 8, episode 18 (and thus it can be deduced from that that the August 25th airing is the "official" airing) - but more importantly, that the July 20th airing is considered by an official source to be an early "sneak preview" airing. This e-mail can be viewed here.

Given that we now have clear official word that the July 20th airing was a special preview airing, and that the episode is season 8 episode 18 not just by production order, I feel that Friendship is Magic animated media and all other relevant pages should be updated to reflect this.-- Jonny Manz^talk_contribs^e-mail_{edit count} 12:00, July 31, 2018 (UTC) 

For the record, this isn't the first time there's been a large disconnect between production order and airing order. Pinkie Pride (S4E12), for example, is still ordered as season 4 episode 11 in reruns (placing it BEFORE Three's A Crowd rather than AFTER), and Scare Master (S5E21) always reruns between Canterlot Boutique (S5E14) and Rarity Investigates! (S5E15)

But if it is the will of both Discovery Family and overall consensus, who am I to argue? (shrug)   12:39, July 31, 2018 (UTC)

I still say that an airing from Discovery Family is still an airing from Discovery Family, but if DF itself is insistent on it... GoldenLine (talk) 13:28, July 31, 2018 (UTC)

Given similarities...

• thing occurs
  • The Last Roundup names a character Derpy
  • Discovery Family airs Yakity-Sax on July 20, 2018 (between The Mean 6 and A Matter of Principals)
• official word retracts thing
  • The Last Roundup is rereleased with the character unnamed; Hasbro has Winter Wrap Up-mentioned Ditzy Doo identified as the same character and eventually names the character Muffins
  • Discovery Family addresses the nature of Yakity-Sax's premiere
• equivalent new thing occurs in same medium as retracted old thing
  • Slice of Life names the character Muffins
  • Discovery Family airs Yakity-Sax on August 25, 2018 (between The End in Friend and On the Road to Friendship)

...if official retraction-and-replacement causes Yakity-Sax to be treated as S8E18, then I'd say it should also cause Muffins to be given precedence over Derpy. (7)6(four) (talk) 16:11, July 31, 2018 (UTC)

I think that, since she was called Derpy in the show, and that is the ultimate source of official material (with no subsequent episodes ever contradicting that name in dialogue), she should stay Derpy. In other words, I feel the dialogue is an inherent part of the show (since it is kept the same in airings in other majority English-speaking countries such as the UK, Canada, and Australia).

On the other hand, I would argue airdate is not an inherent part of the show, since it is assigned by the channel that airs the show (either in the US or elsewhere in the world) - just, for the purposes of this wiki, we have defined the original airing on Discovery Family as the official airing - in the absence of other information.

This is an exceptional case, I don't think we've gotten a clear status indication from the channel before like this, that an airing was merely a "sneak preview" airing, and the official airing would put it as the 18th episode by airing order. Since this would count as official material, and since, as I argued above, I don't believe airdate is an inherent part of the show, I feel that it should take higher precedence over the wiki's normal practice of taking the first airing on Discovery Family as the official airdate of the episode.

I would argue, further, that no policy should be adjusted, and this should just be applied as a one-off, special circumstance, since like I said, I'm not aware of correspondence - clarification, as it were - like Discovery Family (or going back further, The Hub) of this sort before.-- Jonny Manz^talk_contribs^e-mail_{edit count} 07:59, August 3, 2018 (UTC) 

(The ultimate source of official material on this wiki, anyway; not that that affects this discussion. More on-topic,) Forum:"The Wonderbolts" article name through Forum:Consensus regarding "Wonder Bolts"? was settled with File:"The Wonderbolts" name dispute email screenshot.png (until later). (7)6(four) (talk) 15:48, August 3, 2018 (UTC)

Slight correction there, I think (don't quote me on this) that names stated within the episode matter more than what the character is scripted as (if the credits reflect what they're scripted as). Sweetie Drops is still Sweetie Drops even though credits say Bon Bon. Coloratura was changed to Coloratura because of a toy, after previously being her full title as in the credits. GoldenLine (talk) 03:00, August 2, 2018 (UTC)

That reminds me, I've been meaning to start a forum on renaming the pony page Bon Bon based on the fact that she's been called "Bon Bon" more times in the show than "Sweetie Drops" (at least, to my recollection), as well as the whole in-universe problem with assigning "real names" (heck, it could let the EG version just be renamed to Sweetie Drops or something).-- Jonny Manz^talk_contribs^e-mail_{edit count} 07:59, August 3, 2018 (UTC) 

In case it saves forum-starting trouble, I recall reasoning behind Sweetie Drops being that the toys and the show both use "Sweetie Drops" while the show but not the toys uses "Bon Bon" (see also Talk:Bright Mac and Pear Butter#Mac vs. McIntosh). (7)6(four) (talk) 15:48, August 3, 2018 (UTC)

I included the "if the credits reflect what they're scripted as" for a reason, as the latter is definitely taking precedence over the former. And... GoldenLine (talk) 17:20, August 4, 2018 (UTC)

Amy Keating Rogers has indicated credited-as as taking precedence over scripted-as (see Zipporwhill#Development), an indication I agree with. Credits are—and scripts aren't—presented in-media to the viewer; if new material promotes an initially unspoken-named character with differing script-given and credits-given names to explicitly-named status, the new material calling the character by their script-given name would be a contradiction (unless it's an in-universe name-change or something), but the new material calling the character by their credits-given name wouldn't be a contradiction (it'd simply relegate their old script-given name to behind-the-scenes trivia). (7)6(four) (talk) 18:02, August 4, 2018 (UTC)

I should specify that the precedence is something I vaguely remember Throwy saying somewhere in the Sweetie Drops comments (the reasoning behind the show using both name and first-party merchandise using one was also something I pointed out), but looking at the style guide, scripted-as isn't specifically mentioned. As to that example, I think Rogers saying to go with Zipporwhill if it's in the credits settled that before it became an issue, but your right -- it is an "indication".

Then what about (Countess) Coloratura? GoldenLine (talk) 19:45, August 4, 2018 (UTC)

Compare Lily Valley/Lily (and contrast Dr. Horse/Doc Top). (7)6(four) (talk) 06:49, August 5, 2018 (UTC)

Dialogue-vs.-credits needs more consistency; credits and other materials (including with a trademark symbol) use "Principal Abacus Cinch" and "Petunia Paleo" while dialogue simply uses "Principal Cinch" and "Petunia", but Principal Abacus Cinch/Principal Cinch isn't (yet) treated the same as Petunia Paleo/Petunia. (7)6(four) (talk) 15:48, August 3, 2018 (UTC)

If production-numbering-and-rerun-order agreement outweighing premiere order causes Yakity-Sax to be treated as S8E18, then I'd say it should also cause other such cases to be treated in consistency with its. (7)6(four) (talk) 16:11, July 31, 2018 (UTC)

How about Friendship is Magic, part 1 (see Friendship is Magic animated media#Season one and My Little Pony Friendship is Magic#Season one) and My Little Pony Equestria Girls: Rollercoaster of Friendship (see My Little Pony Equestria Girls: Rollercoaster of Friendship#Production)? (7)6(four) (talk) 16:11, July 31, 2018 (UTC)

No idea why this is still an issue considering the amount of evidence that it’s episode 18. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Volectro (talk • contribs)

Do you have anything productive to add to the discussion, Volectro, or are you going to keep taking an "I was right all along" attitude about the matter?   19:44, July 31, 2018 (UTC)

I would tell you exactly what I’m thinking right now but I know better than that. Anyway, since you asked I will tell you how I see the situation as it is. Right now we have a production number, an air date list, an official statement from Discovery Family themself, and the fact that A Matter of Principals is listed as the mid-season premier all of which points to this being episode 18. Despite this, however, the mods seem to be ignoring all of it in favor of their own opinion. I say that because that is what it comes off as. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Volectro (talk • contribs)

In what way are the first posts by Jonny Manz and ImperfectXIII on this page "ignoring all of it in favor of their own opinion"? (7)6(four) (talk) 21:35, July 31, 2018 (UTC)

I said it’s what the whole situation comes off as and that’s all I said. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Volectro (talk • contribs)

You used present tense ("the situation as it is", etc.); whether your impression of the situation was or wasn't accurate prior to this discussion, it currently seems inaccurate. (7)6(four) (talk) 00:04, August 1, 2018 (UTC)

[obligatory The Super Speedy Cider Squeezy 6000 friendship report reference here] (7)6(four) (talk) 21:35, July 31, 2018 (UTC)

The issue involves determining which evidence is and/or isn't change-causing, to keep things consistent; see my earlier posts on this page. (7)6(four) (talk) 21:35, July 31, 2018 (UTC)

I really don't see why this matters, to be honest. They have been loads of times where episodes have aired out of order, and the wiki has always put them in airing order (see Imperfect's messages above). Why can't it just be a fun fact in the production section? Its not like it was a mistake that DFC wanted to undo. They aired the episode on purpose at that time. An official airing is an official airing. Take the EqG episode "Best Trends Forever" as an example. It was released at a time, but then taken down and released later in a different order, but the wiki still has it as the first Choose Your Own Adventure episode. I know this is a little different because of production order, but still. First airing has always taken precendence. TheGuineaPig45 (talk) 03:31, August 1, 2018 (UTC)

Dude, Discovery Family themselves said in an email that that airing was only a preview and that it is actually episode 18. What more do you want? --Volectro (talk) 20:59, August 1, 2018 (UTC)

Discovery Family airings are still Discovery Family airings. We even state right on the wiki that episodes "are listed on the wiki according to air date order." Maybe eventually, we will find out some sort of continuity that will force it to be episode 18. But by this wiki's own rules, it is episode 14. GoldenLine (talk) 03:00, August 2, 2018 (UTC)

Again; Discovery Family themselves said that isn’t the actual episode order and that it will be shown in the official order at a later date. All you’re doing is being stubborn and knowingly giving false information. Volectro (talk)

That doesn't... matter? When has the "actual episode order" ever been a factor? Who knows, maybe the Christmas episode really does happen after the harvest episode. They were 13 and 11 in production order. Still doesn't matter; they aired as 11 and 12, so we have them that way. Maybe all three Pillars episodes really are consecutive. Still doesn't matter because the latter two aired as 18 and 20. We've literally never once cared about what order the episodes "actually" happened. Enforcing that here is just arbitrary. GoldenLine (talk) 17:20, August 4, 2018 (UTC)

Chronology is not the issue at hand here; that's a separate discussion altogether (and subject to much, MUCH debate).   17:25, August 4, 2018 (UTC)

I saw "actual episode order" and assumed that's what he meant -- the actual episode order. I'm aware that's not the subject of the forum. If it does get brought up though, then that's pretty quickly dealt with. ("Ordering works by their fictional chronology, rather than the actual order they were published.")

Also, in addition to it not actually being "false", the date it was aired ahead of is right in the infobox, the reason it was aired ahead of that date is also there, and the production number is mentioned. I don't know what else the article can have other than a citation to that email after, "In production order, this episode is season 8, episode 18." GoldenLine (talk) 19:45, August 4, 2018 (UTC)

It's not "false" that Discovery Family aired the episode early. That was entirely intentional on their part. Regardless of the results of this forum, that fact is indisputable.   16:52, August 4, 2018 (UTC)

Update: Yakity-Sax is now available to watch on certain on-demand services (such as Spectrum) as episode 14.   19:37, August 1, 2018 (UTC)

VODs list episodes differently and not always by proper order. Look for example on Netflix. They are messed up. Kuco28 (talk) 19:59, August 1, 2018 (UTC)

I agree - I would say correspondence from Discovery Family takes higher priority than third-party on-demand services.-- Jonny Manz^talk_contribs^e-mail_{edit count} 07:59, August 3, 2018 (UTC) 

I’m starting to get the feeling that you’re just grasping at straws at this point. But maybe that’s just me. Volectro (talk) 21:06, August 1, 2018 (UTC)

I'm merely pointing out that there is just as much merit and validity in keeping the episode numbered as 14 as there is in changing it to 18, despite your apparent insistence that it be completely disregarded.   21:19, August 1, 2018 (UTC)

And this is coming from the guy who is disregarding every official statement that it’s episode 18. Volectro (talk)

https://mlp.wikia.com/wiki/Talk:Yakity-Sax/@comment-25180578-20180721155421/@comment-5837525-20180721161309

https://mlp.wikia.com/wiki/Talk:Yakity-Sax/@comment-25180578-20180721155421/@comment-5837525-20180721195834

When have I disregarded anything?   21:55, August 1, 2018 (UTC)

Yeah the only thing you acknowledge in those comments is the production number and nothing else. So it really doesn’t disprove what I said. Volectro (talk)

I understand that you might feel frustrated with the slow pace of change (and obviously I agree that the episode should be re-ordered), but please try not to reply unless you have something constructive to add to the discussion - this sort of tangent only serves to derail the discussion, making it more unwieldy and hard to parse.-- Jonny Manz^talk_contribs^e-mail_{edit count} 07:59, August 3, 2018 (UTC) 

That’s just how my mind works and I don’t always realize I’m doing it until after I’ve done it. But to be fair, it is just starting to feel like they just don’t want to admit they’re wrong. But I also don’t have any way to prove that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Volectro (talk • contribs)

I vote that we list it at Episode 18, because that's how it's eventually going to be on Netflix and iTunes, and how it's definitely going to be on the DVD release. This was always meant to be episode 18. It's just confusing to have it as episode 14. Throws everything off. Another example: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Recap/MyLittlePonyFriendshipIsMagic Dogman15 (talk) 22:15, August 3, 2018 (UTC)

Regarding home media releases, see Kuco28's earlier post on this page, and DVD sets haven't always ordered episodes consistently either (Shout! Factory example: Season Two and Season Three use production order; Season Four, Season Five, and Season Six use Discovery Family premiere order). Also, what's another unofficial wiki's list supposed to be an "example" of? (7)6(four) (talk) 23:07, August 3, 2018 (UTC)

TvTropes already uses production order, so that's not saying much. GoldenLine (talk) 23:50, August 3, 2018 (UTC)

Anything more to add before I start screencapping A Matter of Principals and The Hearth's Warming Club?   14:45, August 5, 2018 (UTC)

Answer this question; What are you going to do when Discovery Family eventually reruns it as episode 18? Because that’s exactly what’s going to happen. Volectro (talk)

I never questioned that it wouldn't. That's not the purpose of this discussion.   21:49, August 5, 2018 (UTC)

Way to avoid answering. Volectro (talk)

The same thing we do when Discovery Family reruns Scare Master as episode 15 or The Fault in Our Cutie Marks as episode 9 -- nothing. GoldenLine (talk) 03:07, August 6, 2018 (UTC)

In other words you’re going to knowingly supply false information. And your statement about The Fault in our Cutie Marks does not work because it is a completely different situation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Volectro (talk • contribs)

In other words you're still repeating yourself. Regarding The Fault in Our Cutie Marks, I'm guessing GoldenLine meant to say "The Fault in Our Cutie Marks as episode 9". (7)6(four) (talk) 01:33, August 6, 2018 (UTC)

^ In addition to that, I answered the "false information" before. ("the date it was aired ahead of is right in the infobox, the reason it was aired ahead of that date is also there, and the production number is mentioned. I don't know what else the article can have other than a citation to that email after, 'In production order, this episode is season 8, episode 18.'") GoldenLine (talk) 03:07, August 6, 2018 (UTC)

At this point I would recommend make an exception for the usual "go by airing order-rule". This is the first time an episode not only aired out of order but is considered a preview airing by the network itself. The latter part is unique for this situation compared to the usual out of order airings. The fandom usually goes by airing order like the wiki does, but as it currently stands most (sub-)communities within the fandom seem to be making an exception this time in that "Matter of Principals" is EP14 and "Yakity-Sax" is EP18. It would make sense for the wiki to match this. Gameleon (talk) 15:48, August 7, 2018 (UTC)

Yeah, going through the replies, it might be my sleep-addled mind (and so I might be misreading some of 764's responses), but it sounds like there's a general consensus now to do so, based on the evidence as provided by the screenshot (which is precedented, based on that Wonderbolts vs. The Wonderbolts, etc., forum).-- Jonny Manz^talk_contribs^e-mail_{edit count} 05:19, August 9, 2018 (UTC) 

No, the main evidence isn't just based on the screenshot from some forum. It's based on this document, linked on the official site of Discovery Family: https://cf-media.press.discovery.com/ugc/highlights/2018/07/20/143238/DFC_Highlights_-_August_2018_-_Final.pdf (Look at the last page of this PDF file). -- AstrumSpark (talk) 00:54, August 12, 2018 (UTC)

According to that document...

• A Matter of Principals "premieres"
• The Hearth's Warming Club "premieres"
• Friendship University "premieres"
• The End in Friend "premieres"
• Yakity-Sax "airs"

...so the document isn't the main evidence. (7)6(four) (talk) 01:19, August 12, 2018 (UTC)

For the record, I'm not exactly part of current consensus in either direction; I wouldn't quite say I'm neutral, but I see significant reason for each side, so my opinions cancel each other out and leave me undecided. (7)6(four) (talk) 08:53, August 9, 2018 (UTC)

This isn't a new comment in favor or against anything (I already said something six days ago), but for informational purposes, this thread is relevant and related to the discussion: https://derpibooru.org/forums/tagging/topics/can-we-get-a-mod-consensus-on-the-spoilers08e14-vs-spoilers08e18-tags Dogman15 (talk) 09:33, August 9, 2018 (UTC)

That thread has informally always been linked to (in the first post by Jonny Manz) on this page, but if that thread is relevant and related to the discussion on this page and worth linking to from here for informational purposes, then is this page relevant and related to the discussion in that thread and worth linking to from there for informational purposes? (7)6(four) (talk) 00:34, August 10, 2018 (UTC)

Alright, so like I said above, it seems the general consensus is that the change should be made, with a couple neutral/undecided parties willing to go along with whatever conclusion is reached, and one party opposed. Therefore, I feel the change should go ahead and be implemented. Agree? Disagree? Comments?-- Jonny Manz^talk_contribs^e-mail_{edit count} 10:34, August 11, 2018 (UTC) 

Sure, I guess. (shrug)   13:42, August 11, 2018 (UTC)

Okay, that should take care of most (if not all) listings, appearance information, List of ponies updates, etc. (aside from, of course, the screencaps for A Matter of Principals and The Hearth's Warming Club that need to be moved). If I missed anything, I'm sure (7)6(four) will bring it to my attention. :P   22:48, August 11, 2018 (UTC)

I thought that the decision carried out after a forum discussion doesn't necessarily come from how many users agree, but this is one where I don't feel strongly about. I swear I remember this being said somewhere, I just don't remember where... GoldenLine (talk) 23:05, August 11, 2018 (UTC)